MD need help, no german

[ubermensch]

hi,

i'm sorry i don't speak german but i was wondering if any english speakers out there could help me. i'm a medical doctor and i would like to receive some training in surgery in germany.

any info you can share on vacancies or where i can apply or the nature of the programs will be greatly appreciated.

thanks a lot and long live germany :-top

[eatpigsbarf]

In order to help you, we need some more information, i. e. which surgical area you´re like to work in (general, visceral, thoracic. etc.) and what kind of hospital setting you´re d prefer (university, community...)

[ubermensch]

thanks eatpigsbarf, peculiar name by the way, well i'm interested in neurosurgery and i'd definitely prefer a university setting to a community med program. also do you know if i'd be required to know german as a prerequisite or is it ok if i learn it in my first year, i figure surgery is more technique based and fluency in german might not be as much of a requirement, is this a correct assessment.

thanks

[Tombow]

Language skills are a mandatory prerequisite in case you want to apply for an "approbation" (a permission to practice as a doctor) or a "professional permission". No way around it. The differences between the approbation and the professional permit is that only german/EU-citizen are eligible for the approbation and one can apply for it anytime while all other have to secure a contract and then apply for a professional permission.

How the matter is exactly handled, falls within the responsibility of the administration responsible for your application, some require a document proof that you have sufficient command of the language, some accept it as a proof when one submits his application personally so the clerk responsible for the whole thing gets a chance to see and speak you.

In some cases, there might be a way to circumvent the requirement but I would strongly advise you against doing so.

[eatpigsbarf]

I think that´d be a big advantage if you knew German or if you´d take German classes (such as the classes offered by the Goethe Institute) while working here to improve your German. You´re completely right that surgery might be the best field to start in when you´re not speaking any German, on the other hand you probably won´t be working in the OR all the time, but rather have direct contact to patients as well. And that would obviously require you to speak some German.
On the other hand, a lot of hospitals have hired foreign doctors from Arabian or Eastern European countries that don´t know a single word of German and they manage to get around as well. You will definitely miss out on a lot of the everyday-life in a German hospital if you don´t speak the language.
If you will find a position here depends on a couple of other things as well: do you want to be hired as a "normal" assistant doctor (i.e. the equivalent to an American resident)? Or do you prefer a position as a guest doctor, where you are paid not only by the hospital but also have other sources, such as scholarships etc.? In this second case, it might be much easier to get a position, because if you want to have the same "job-duties" as the other assistant doctors, it might be much, much harder to get a job, because you won´t be able to work as much (doing routine-work etc.), simply because you will have the language-problem.
But, again, this are just my thoughts and ideas. You won´t find out until you have applied, since the different directors will all have different ideas :-).

Do you have any ideas so far where to find addresses for applications? Or do you need held with those as well?

[Evil]

Hi there, I just moved the thread into another forum.

Well, you obviously need to know how to call the surgical instruments in German.
However, the job-advertisements are usually written in German. Apart of that you probably won't have too many problems as long as you take some efforts to learn the language in time.

Btw, where do you come from?

[ubermensch]

thanks for all the replies, well i'm from the Philippines, i've always wanted to work and live in a country where a foreign language (well foreign to me that is) was spoken and that's why i'm considering germany.

to answer your question eatpigsbarf, yeah i'd definitely be needing info on addresses. and i'd appreciate any info on the guest doctor and/or assistant doctor.

thanks again for all the info, keep em coming.

[Tombow]

So, if you're from the Philippines, this makes it easier (or harder) to land a job in Germany. Since the Philippines are considered a medical development land by the OECD, you're entitled to apply for an one-year-term in a german hospital and the necessary permits (professional license, work permit) are usually granted with little or no fuss. But, the one-year-term means exactly what it is - one year. No further exension possible. Some regional administrations in Germany even require from such applicants a signed declaration that they will return to their homeland after competing the stint in Germany. And this declaration is a mandatory prerequisite in processing your application for a professional license.

The professional license (accidentally named professional permit in my previous post) is basically your medical license in Germany. Responsible for issuing it are various administration bodies, depending on where you intend to work. In the province of Northern Rhine-Westphalia you have to apply with the county administration (Bezirksregierung) responsible for your work place. In other provinces, the matter is handled centrally by the provincial Board of Medical, Psychotherapeutical and Pharmaceutical Examination (Name may vary, depends on the province).

There are various documents which have to be submitted with your application. The basic ones include a contract with a german employer, your original medical license (if necessary, validated by the regional board of medical examination), a certificate of good standing and a medical certificate. Sometimes there are further documents required.

Your original medical license should be validated by the board of medical examination responsible for the regional of your intended employment, so obviously this is the fist thing to inquire - does your license need validation and where you have to apply for one, if needed.

After all the hassle comes the work permit. It is usually (automatically) applied for when you apply for a visa, so not much of a hassle here. If you choose to apply for an one-year-term as a physician from an OECD development land, usually a restricted work permit is granted with little or no obstacles. For the caveats - see above. One year, and not a second more, german authorities are very strict with that.

As for landing a regular job in Germany - two words: forget it! Even if you manage to secure a contract, trying to receive your professional license is an exercise in futility and a task next to impossible. Only exclusion are some provinces where a dire shortage of medical personnel exists, but it is highly unlikely to find a job at an university clinic there, you'll rather find yourself in some small county clinic.

[ubermensch]

wow, that was great, thanks a lot for the info, i'll look into it further and contact the embassy here.

[Sackbauer]

Perhaps I'm the only one here who considers working in a country where you haven't got a clue about the language a bit silly..... But, never mind.

German is a very difficult language, as you are already fluent in English, why not going to the UK? Recognition is much easier, and people will accept you. I doubt that in many parts of Germany (and Austria/CH).

[ubermensch]

well sackbauer, you might be right, it might be a bit silly, but hey, we're young, if not now when else can we be silly, when we're old?

thanks for the input though

[eatpigsbarf]

@sackbauer: plus, we all have a brain that can be trained to learn new languages still at an old age (and, in this case, I consider every age < 65 young)... so, if somebody is eager to learn a new language, why not try?
Ubermensch has been informed how hard it will be to get a position here in Germany and if that doesn´t scare him, why not try it?
And yes, German is hard, but on the other hand, it´s not Chinese :-).

[Evil]

@sackbauer: plus, we all have a brain
Sure? :-))

[Dr. Pschy]

Not quite :-D Sorry for offtopic.

[eatpigsbarf]

well, at least I hope :-).

[erich]

Well, in spite of having respect for people starting work here without knowing the language, I don´t know if I would recommend Germany concerning your medical career, at least if you´re in your first years, just because you´ll have to do more simple (= not quite challenging) work and probably get less teaching and guidance than in many other countries. Most hospitals here don´t really have something like a programm to teach you systematically, but you depend on if your boss likes you and cares for your training or not. Besides German isn´t spoken by lots of people (compared to Spanish, for example), so learning it won´t help you much if you´re planning to see other countries later.
I don´t know about getting the permission to practice and don´t know if this would work, but I´ve seen doctors working here who really spoke a bad German, which was mostly in rural areas in Eastern Germany (i.e. no university programm, probably no neuro- but general surgery), just because they have difficulty getting people. So if this also was an option for you, try, but you also should know that their colleagues often didn´t care whether they understood their patients or not and lots of them didn´t speak English, so you should learn really quickly before you´re on call alone the first time...
Apart from that there are hospitals who offer students to assist in the OR and get paid for it, what you probably could do without a german license also (???). Maybe also not challenging, but a possibility to earn some money while learning the language, see some procedures and get contacts there.
Best wishes
Erich

[ubermensch]

thanks erich, do you have web links to the programs that offer paid positions to students to asist in the OR?

[erich]

Not really, I know one hospital (watch your PMs). Again, this also isn´t a programm, they just need cheap (2nd) assistances.