Belgian medical student.

[Cooldude]

Hi,

I'm a belgian medical student and I would like to ask some questions.
For the moment I'm in my 7th and last year of medical school, at the end of this year(june 2008) I will be a doctor.
The last year in Belgium is a year where you work in the hospital on the department of your choice.
I want to become an orthopaedic surgeon but this year we are with way too much candidates.(14 and only 5 will be allowed)So,my chances aren't very big.
My question was, is there a chance for me to do the "weiterbildung" in Germany?
Are there prescriptions for foreign students?
Is orthopadie very popular in germany?or can you start immediately?
And every other info about the weiterbildung orthopadie is welcome.

And yes, I write in English, so the language is also a problem. But I have already a basic knowledge German, but if I can start in a german hospital I will follow some courses German first.

Thanks

[Cooldude]

I notice that I don't get any answers on my questions.
Can somebody plz answer to some of my questions???
I can understand that it is not interesting to answer me cause you don't want foreigners to take a place in Germany but we are all european medical students and in Belgium we have german students too.
So, to the good souls, give an answer plz.

[Tombow]

To answer some of your questions:

"Weiterbildung" is not the correct word for what you're aiming for. Here in Germany the last year is reffered to as "Practical Year" or colloquially as "PJ" (from the german abbreviation). "Weiterbildung" refers to the residency following graduation (which comes after the PJ).

The PJ is different from Belgium - you have to undergo 4-month stints in inner medicine, surgery and in a department of your choice. So a whole year in orthopedic surgery is simply not possible.

The PJ cannot be done at any hospital, but only at certain "academical teaching hospitals". And in some hospitals, as a PJ, don't even dream of entering the OP theater as a surgeon in training, chance is that you're degraded to drawing blood samples, doing the examinations on all the new admissions to the ward, writing discharge letters and other various "funnies" of that sort. And even if you're lucky enough to get some OP time, the most of it will be in the position of 2nd assistant. Which means basically being degraded to a "biologic retractor holder".

As for being allowed to do your PJ in Germany - it is certainly possible after an examination of your current curriculum. The authorities responsible for that are the "Landesprüfungsämter" (provincial examination authorities) or the equivalent authorities in the provinces, where there are no "Landesprüfungsämter". Another dumb obstacle to run into owing to Germany's organisation as a Federation and delegating responsibilities to the provincial level.

Now on to the checklist of how to start off: first, look for a hospital you'd like to go to and establish contact with the chief of the orthopedic department. This might prove valuable later on. Then, find out the provincial authority and contact them with an inquiry about your intention. Eventually you'll be asked to send in all kinds of relevant and irrelevant documents about your current curriculum (Diplomas, Exams and so on), and they will be checked for equivalence to the german ones. Purely a bureaucratic procedure which could take up to 6 months (or at least took so long back in 1998 as i was struggling with it). In uncertain cases, there is always a joker in having a good contact with your current chiefs at the university (ask the relevant ones if they could provide you with such support), so questions from the german authorities can be clarified with a single phone call. Also, having a good contact with your future Chief in PJ can be valuable here. While the examination of equivalence is a legitimate process, the way it is done, combined with stubborn german bureaucracy often produces questions where the answers are not to be found in the book.

Hope that helps.

[Cooldude]

I don't want to come this year to germany, I want to come next year.
The pj you are referring to is the same as the 6th year in Belgium, here you are a "Stagiair".
I ended my "PJ" already this year( a month ago) (4 months internal medicine, 4 months surgery, 2 months gynaecology and 2 months paediatrics)
So that's finished.
And this year, (the 7th)(in Belgium medical school is 7 year), I will work a whole year on the department of orthopaedic surgery, and after that you are a doctor and they allow you to start the "weiterbildung" in Belgium or they don't allow you and you have to choose another speciality.
But my goal is to come to Germany after my 7th year, so after this year.
I think I can start with the "weiterbildung" immediately, not?
And what about the chances for orthopaedic surgery???
And in Belgium you have to work all the time in the operating room during your "PJ" so I have a little bit exerience already.

Hope you can still give me answers.

Thanks

[Kajana79]

you might just not get too many replies because what you are describing is highly confusing for us. 6th year, 7th year, I don't really get it. But anyway, it is actually as simple as that - if you're a fully qualified doctor you can apply to any orthopedic surgery department in germany you like and if you get a job you can start your training. But if you don't have a full license you will not get a "weiterbildungsstelle" as in Germany the restricted licenses (AiP) have been gotten rid of 2 yrs ago, so now you get a full license once you finish med school.Therefore you will probably only be able to start your training in germany once you're fully qualified, I guess.
Does this help at all?

[Cooldude]

Thanks for answering.
In Belgium You have to do 7 years of medical school.
5 years is only teaching and test.(School)
The 6th is like PJ in Germany, (4months internal, 4 months surgery and 4 months paediatrics and gynaecology)
The 7th year is a year with few months lessons , and most of the time working in the hospital on the department of your choice.(for me it's orthopaedic surgery)
After the 7th year you are a doctor.(Basic doctor)And they will allow you or allow you not for the chosen specialization.
If you are allowed you have to do 6 years of specialization(for internal 5years)
If you are not allowed, you have to choose another specialization or become a general doctor.(general doctor is 2 years extra).

So, I will be a full doctor wenn I come to Germany after my 7th year.(No???)
And I can start immediately???
Isn't there much competition for the jobs?Or is it easy for orthopaedic surgery?
Is there a difference between the hospitals?Are there good traningships and bad? Or doesn't it matter where you fulfill your training???

Hope, you understand it now?
Thanks

[Der Praktikant]

If you will come after you have received full license in Belgium (after 7th year), in my opinion there is no obstacle to start with the german "Weiterbildung" of your choice. Just take a look at the Stellenanzeigen section of the Deutsches Ärzteblatt (www.aerzteblatt.de). orthopedic surgery and trauma surgery were merged recently. Both subspecialities have a common trunk (3 years) now. I think surgery and most subspecialities are not very competetive to get in nowadays, even for a foreign graduate, especially for an EU grad. Just be aware that wages are low and workload is high. Maybe you should avoid training at the big University Hospitals, because programs tend to be more malignat over there...

[Tombow]

OK, now it becomes more clear.

The question in point is, will your current license (or exam certificate) be accepted as a full certificate in Germany. If not, so no way. No full license=no "Weiterbildung" allowed.

On the other side, if you' re a "real" doc, you're allowed to apply for a position in any specialization you want. Since Belgium is in the EU, the medical license is valid EU-wide.

Orthopedic surgery is one of the many specialities in Germany which are struggling with a lack of interest from the freshly graduated docs, so chances are good to get a job, however, you must work hard on your german.

My tip: go for your 7th Year in Belgium and try some other department where you can gain OP mileage or other valuable skills. General surgery would be a good starting point, since in some "Weiterbildungsordnungen" (specialization rulebooks), a certain amount of time in general surgery is a requirement in the orthopaedic surgery curriculum (don't ask why, it is so). Then, you're free to apply for a job at an orthopaedic department in Germany.

[Cooldude]

Ok, now it's more clear for me.
So it's not difficult to start in Germany.

Department orthopaedic surgery in my 7th is quite the same as general!
The OR work is the same, it's orthopaedic and general, so that's not a problem.

I read that the salary isn't that good?
In Belgium an assistant earns 1500 euro netto/month going up to 1800/month in your last year. Wenn you do a night shift you'll get 100euro/night extra.
If you do 8 nights in a month you'll earn 2300 euro NETTO.
Is it more bad in Germany???I thought Belgium was the minimum.

The workload is no problem.
In Belgium there are NO RULEZ.
70 to 110 hours a week. Can't be worse in Germany???

And now some final questions. :-blush
Wenn do I have to aply for the jobs?
Do I have to start now?Or after I finished my 7th???
Do you have specific good adresses???

Much thanks already for the answers.

[gossenschlampe76]

Start applying when you can have this conversation in German.

[Cooldude]

Das ist nicht sooooo schwierig.

Mein Deutsch ist nich so gut aber ich habe jetzt ein basis.

Aber ich finde dein antwort nicht so freundlich und niederlandisch- Deutsch ist nicht so verschieden.

Ja, uberall gibt es unhoffliche menschen sicher.

[flok]

Ok, now it's more clear for me.
So it's not difficult to start in Germany.

Department orthopaedic surgery in my 7th is quite the same as general!
The OR work is the same, it's orthopaedic and general, so that's not a problem.

I read that the salary isn't that good?
In Belgium an assistant earns 1500 euro netto/month going up to 1800/month in your last year. Wenn you do a night shift you'll get 100euro/night extra.
If you do 8 nights in a month you'll earn 2300 euro NETTO.
Is it more bad in Germany???I thought Belgium was the minimum.

The workload is no problem.
In Belgium there are NO RULEZ.
70 to 110 hours a week. Can't be worse in Germany???

And now some final questions. :-blush
Wenn do I have to aply for the jobs?
Do I have to start now?Or after I finished my 7th???
Do you have specific good adresses???

Much thanks already for the answers.

In financial terms Belgium seems to be compareable to Germany (unfortunately...) http://www.medi-learn.de/medizinstudium/foren/showpost.php?p=287238&postcount=72

Hours should be much less. I'm doing an internship in internal medicine right now and the assistant doctors there work approx. 50-70 hrs/week (7:30 till ~17:30, remaining hours: occaisonally night/saturday/sunday shifts). Surgery is said to be some hrs more, but I'm quite sure that nobody does 110.

[gossenschlampe76]

Das ist nicht sooooo schwierig.

Mein Deutsch ist nich so gut aber ich habe jetzt ein basis.

Aber ich finde dein antwort nicht so freundlich und niederlandisch- Deutsch ist nicht so verschieden.

Ja, uberall gibt es unhoffliche menschen sicher.

Der Kommentar war net unhoeflich gemeint. Ich wollte dich nur auf die deutsche Mentalitaet einstimmen, wo jemand, der net perfekt Deutsch spricht, net fuer ganz voll genommen wird.

[blanko]

Most jobs are offered to start right away. It doesn't make sense to apply more then maybe 2 month prior to your wanted starting date.
Just direct your appliance to the head of departement at the hospital of your choice.
You can either apply "blindly" or answer a job add.

"niederlandisch- Deutsch"
I'm sorry no offence, just curiosity. I thought in Belgium it's either French of Flamish (or is that the same as "niederländisch")?

[Der Praktikant]

Der Kommentar war net unhoeflich gemeint. Ich wollte dich nur auf die deutsche Mentalitaet einstimmen, wo jemand, der net perfekt Deutsch spricht, net fuer ganz voll genommen wird.

gilt in einigen Kreisen auch für Leute, die es schaffen selbst schriftlich ihren Dialekt kund zu tun... :-D

[Cooldude]

Der Kommentar war net unhoeflich gemeint. Ich wollte dich nur auf die deutsche Mentalitaet einstimmen, wo jemand, der net perfekt Deutsch spricht, net fuer ganz voll genommen wird.


Ok, sorry, thanks for your advice.
You are probably right, but it was the plan already to go and learn German.

[Cooldude]

Most jobs are offered to start right away. It doesn't make sense to apply more then maybe 2 month prior to your wanted starting date.
Just direct your appliance to the head of departement at the hospital of your choice.
You can either apply "blindly" or answer a job add.

"niederlandisch- Deutsch"
I'm sorry no offence, just curiosity. I thought in Belgium it's either French of Flamish (or is that the same as "niederländisch")?

Niederlandisch is the same.
In fact Flemmish doesn't exist.
The Belgian and Dutch people just pronounce it differently, and some words are more typical for Holland, others more for Belgium.
But we all spreak niederländisch.

BTW. Thanks for your advice about applying.