Oralchirugie. Praxis oder Uni ?

[Marcusas]

Liebe Kolleginen und Kollegen,

ich habe ein paar Frage an Weiterbildungsstätte für Oral Chirurgie. Ich verstehe nicht wer ist zuständig dafür - Uni oder Praxis ? Zum beispiel wenn ich eine Stelle in Praxis bekomme (für Oral chirugie), garantiert mir das ,dass ich auch eine Stelle in Uni bekomen wird ? Oder man kann Oral Chirurgie nur in Praxis absolvieren ?

Hello dear Colleagues,

I have one question regarding oral surgery (weiterbildung) in Germany. It is a little bit complicated for me to understand how this system works in Germany for oral surgery training. For example in my country (EU member), if you want to be an oral surgeon after dentistry graduation, you can do this only by applying directly to university and there is no such thing like authorized private practice which prepares oral surgeons like in Germany or any other way. Yes, you can take implantology courses and something like this, but its not the same. I mean like a real oral surgery training which includes traumatology, minor tumor surgery and etc. So my question would be, what do you do after graduation? Looking for private praxis, which is authorized to prepare oral surgeons and you stay there till the end of your training(3 years) or you still need to apply to university?

Danke schon mal in Voraus !

[IngmarS]

Hallo, du kannst es in der Praxis oder in der Uni machen. Aber du brauchst unbedingt ein Klinikjahr, sprich du musst mindestens ein Jahr lang in einer Klinik die eine Weiterbildungsermächtigung für OCH hat, ableisten. Die Stellen sind dort sehr rar und durchaus schlecht bezahlt. In der Praxis kannst du dir maximal zwei jahre anerkennen lassen. In Hessen besteht die Ausnahme dass du in der Praxis komplett die OCH Weiterbildung ohne ein klinikjahr absolvieren kannst. Viel Spaß bei der Jobsuche.

[Marcusas]

Danke schon für dein ausführliche antwort!!

Und was geht weiter als du eine stelle in praxis bekommt, macht diese zwei Jahre und was weiter? Vieleicht es ist naiv zu glauben, dass die Stelle in Uni ist automatisch garantiert ?

Its very interesting ,thank you for your answer!
I have few more questions if you don't mind.
When you finish your two year training in praxis, what do you do then ? Because I've heard from local german doctors that you have to stand in line and wait for place in University minimum 5 years or smth like that. Is it true? Could you tell me more about that waiting list? Because in our university if you do not meet certain criteria at that time of the movement, they don't accept you, but there is no waiting list,one way or another you could try to apply next year more prepared.

I guess that no one guaranty you that after two years of training in praxis you will get place in university, right? So at the end you may be left with nothing, am i right?

Ich freue mich sehr auf dein Antwort! DANKE

[Rynca]

The training process as an oral surgeon is indeed quite complicated as ecery "Zahnärztekammer" has their own rules (Weiterbildungsordnung) and there are 17 different ones.
In general it is this way:
First you need one year of working experience as a general dentist after graduation.

Second you need 3 years as a "Weiterbildungsassistent" (like a trainee oral surgeon) under the supervision of a qualified oral surgeon who has a "Weiterbildungsermächtigung" (something like a license to train treinee oral surgeons).

At least one of this three years you have to be working in a clinic, which can be a university as well as a licensed hospital with an oral surgery or maxillofacial surgery department. It has to be at least one year but can be up to all three years.
Often also only up to two job positions can be considered to meet this requirements.

Third you also have to meet a list of surgerys performed as a requirement before you are able to take your qualifing exam with the "Zahnärztekammer". There you also often have to present some cases.

None of this positions is guaranteed. You have to apply for them like for any regular job and either you get it or not. Of course you can reapply if you are more experienced and hope to secure a post. But as clinic jobs are quite rare especially if you are unexperienced it may take several years until you get one.

Unlike in most other countries in Germany there is no formal training course, curriculum or studies. Mostly it is like more or less supervised working to get practical experience. To get the theoretical background you either have to study it by yourself, book courses and visit congresses.

[Marcusas]

Thank you ,Rynca,it is a wonderful answer.

So I assume that it's easier to start this journey in place which has "Weiterbildungsermächtigung", because universities are often overloaded with applicants. And after two years of weiterbildungassitent then just patiently sit and wait when there will be available place in Uni klinik to finish training.

So lets pretend that I've already finished my two years of weiterbildungsassistent time and now i'm waiting for available place in uni. I'm like s half of surgeon now, but i guess that it doesn't give me right to perform surgical procedures till i get full authorization yes?

And what about the job it self, i mean for "Weiterbildungassitent" i assume that you are just assisting, but don't do surgery's by yourself right?

[Rynca]

In Germany if you talk about an "Assistenzarzt"/"Assistenzzahnarzt" you mean a junior doctor / vocational trainee.
"Weiterbildungsassistent" just means physician/surgeon/dentist in training to become a specialist. You still work as a dentist but on a supervised position.
Ideally procedures should be shown to you while assist, then you perform them under supervision and then on your own.
Normally if you are employed in a practice you just work(eg doing surgeries) and have you boss who you can ask for help if you don't know what to do.

Also as a dentist you are legally allowed to perform any procedure an oral surgeon is allowed to do. But if something goes wrong you might be in trouble proving that it wasn't your lack of training. If you had training and can prove it and can prove that you are able to handle complications you would probably be fine.

Yes sadly it is this way that a lot of people have worked as a "Weiterbildungsassistent" for two years or more are waiting/looking for a post at a uni or clinic. There are also other privately run clinics which count as a clinic year.

[Marcusas]

This is a citation from official Weiterbildungordnung document - " Die Weiterbildung gem. Abs. 1 muss innerhalb eines Zeitraumes von 8 Jahren abgeschlossen werden. " Is it possible that after 2 years of training in practice you still wont get any Uni clinic job? Have you ever heard that someone encountered that kind of problem? And if you not able to find it in 8 years, you have to repeat your weiterbildung from the beginning?

And one more thing about that uni clinic place. So what is the most important to get that place in uni, your experience (in years), the amount of courses or conferences that you attend to or maybe your science activity your published articles or maybe just your graduation grades? Do they consider those things ? Or you have to wait in line like any other applicant and it is just the matter of time ?

The same thing interest me also when trying to get a place in private practice , do they consider those things and what is most important in your opinion ?

Thank you!

[Rynca]

Yes, it is possible to not get a clinic post within 8 years, not likely but possible. But if this happens it probably has some reason and I would suggest trying something else.
According to this information you would have to start from the beginning, but there are 17 different "Weiterbildungsordnungen" in Germany and I'm quite sure not everyone has this paragraph.

You should have some kind of previous experience, and I'm quite sure a scientific background is also nice and makes you better qualified. Also there is no real waiting list. You just apply again and again until you get lucky. Also it might happen that they chose someone who didn't wait as long as you did before you just because they like him/her or his/her application more.

To work in private practice I think practical experience and qualifications are most important as you earn them money. To some a scientific background might also be nice. As far as I noticed there are only few who are keen about good graduation grades, quite often they don't matter at all as long as they aren't to bad. More important are your references from former employers.

[Marcusas]

Rynca, maybe you know where i could find the list of universities and private praxis which are authorized prepare oral surgeons?

And you mentioned there the place where marks could be quite important, could you tell me where is that place?

[jan_mediklin]

to find such a list might be difficult i guess. but every dental school has a department of oral surgery that prepares oral surgeons.
maybe "zahnärztekammer" or "kassenzahnärztliche vereinigung" (+ the name of the "bundesland" where you want to work) is in possession of such a list containing all practices that prepare oral surgeons. you can ask them via email.
good luck

[Marcusas]

Thanks for your advise.

It is still interesting how does the application process it self looks. You just wait till there are some recruitment advertising in the internet, or you need to send your CV every year to the same clinics each year ?

[jan_mediklin]

personally, i would not wait for any recruitment advertising but try to apply directly at a university or practice. it's some effort, but effective. the worst thing that can happen is an answer saying "no, thanks". another possibility ist that you try to get found. you can write an advertisment (maybe website of "zahnärztliche mitteilungen" or similar) saying that you're looking for a place to become an oral surgeon. i don't know how succesful this way might be, but you could give it a try