DoppelFacharzt psychiatrie und neurologie

[AlexLeo]

Hallo,

ist das noch möglich?

Wie lange dauert es, 8 Jahre?

Was sind die Vor- und Nachteile?

Danke

[Kackbratze]

Ja, es ist möglich. Nachteil ist die verlängerte Weiterbildungszeit, Vorteil ist mehr Wissen. Hast Du es schonmal mit einer eigenen Recherche zu solchen Grundlagenfragen probiert?

[davo]

Warum soll es nicht möglich sein? WBO lesen. In Hessen wären es glaube ich acht Jahre. Den konkreten Nutzen sehe ich als Noch-Student leider eher nicht, da der Anteil der neuropsychiatrischen Patienten an der Gesamtzahl der psychiatrischen Patienten meiner bescheidenen Erfahrung nach ziemlich gering ist. Und an großen Kliniken, an denen es nennenswerte Zahlen solcher Fälle gibt, gibt es dann auch genug Fachärzte beider Bereiche.

[tarumo]

Die Recherche hätte sich ja sogar darauf beschränken können, ein wenig nach unten zu scrollen. Ich weiß jetzt nicht, ob Du Dich überhaupt mit der WBO beschäftigt hat. Z.B. ist für Neuro 12 Monate Psychiatrie als Pflichtweiterbildung drin. Ferner ist die aktuelle Stellensituation so, daß Du in beiden Fächern unmittelbar nach der FA-Prüfung Oberarztstellen angeboten bekommen wirst, zumal als Muttersprachler. Warum dann nochmal den Stress mit einer zweiten Weiterbildung? Es sei denn, Du hast reich geheiratet und stehst tierisch auf Dienste. Wenn man später in eine Praxis gehen will, ist das auch nicht wirklich lohnend.

[AlexLeo]

I'm sorry, but my knowledge of German is still very little, I read the post below, but I didn't understand it so much, I got quite confused. What is WBO? Thank you very much everyone

[AlexLeo]

[QUOTE=AlexLeo;2027632]I'm sorry, but my knowledge of German is still very little, I read the post below, but I didn't understand it so much, I got quite confused. I know that there is the psychiatrie Jahr in neurologie route and viceversa. But I'm interested in doing both since I like both the subjects, and I'm still unentschieden between them since there are some things I like from each. Vielen Danke

[AlexLeo]

I'm sorry, but my knowledge of German is still very little, I read the post below, but I didn't understand it so much, I got quite confused. I know that there is the psychiatrie Jahr in neurologie route and viceversa. But I'm interested in doing both since I like both the subjects, and I'm still unentschieden between them since there are some things I like from each. Vielen Danke

[davo]

Weiterbildungsordnung. The PGME regulations, which vary by Landesärztekammer. Since you need one year of psychiatry for specialty training in neurology, and vice versa, the total duration is eight years. That's true in Hesse at least. As written above, I'm not sure if there is any clinical value added though - but then again, I'm just a medical student :-p

[tarumo]

In a nutshell- first, finish the resident training in your preferred specialty, then think about a second residency. At this time, your language skills should be sufficient to understand postings like the one above. German healtcare system does not offer any substancial benefits for top performers or above-average skills. This may change if you opt for another country later on, of course.
You may also check some sources like international medical student boards and similar. IMHO most of the members there (at least from first-world countries) have very good argument against residency in Germany- try to explain there you want to do it twice;-)

[AlexLeo]

Thank you everyone for your kind answers. I'm still in medical school (4th year), I know I have to improve my knowledge of German first, but I'm very interested for many reasons, first of all the possibility of doing research during the residency (the doktorarbeit, if i'm not wrong). I don't care so much about the salary if I can do what I like, since my interest is basically in neuroscience. Clinically, I can't choose between MS and neuromuscular diseases from neurology, and personality disorder, autism and substance abuse from psychiatry, I'm really interested in both. From neurology I like procedures, but I find extremely boring stroke and dementia, from psychiatry I dislike the lack of "doctoriness" and the absence of any procedure. Doing both would be great for me and another reasons to continue my study of German and trying to move there. :)

[Choranaptyxis]

The Doktorarbeit ist most often done already during studies as in residency time is lacking unless you have a position that allows you to spend enough time on it. It is not an automatic part of the residency.

[AlexLeo]

Thank you Jana, from your point of view, how many are the possibilities of doing research during residency (in neurology or psychiatry) if one strongly wants that? Danke

[Choranaptyxis]

With this I cannot help you, maybe others know it better

[davo]

If you want neurology without dementia and stroke, what about pediatric neurology?

Any research you want to do as a resident is usually above and beyond your paid position - i.e. you have to do it on your own time. Many residents find it difficult to find time to finish their Doktorarbeit - but some eventually succeed.

[AlexLeo]

Thank you Davo :) Sometimes I consider pediatric neurology, but maybe is too narrow for me. I would rather prefer spend my time helping kids with autism, or a group of drug addicted, or psychorehab of people in jail. Are psychiatrists in Germany involved in those topics? The fact is that I do like also some neurological disease, and the procedures. For this reason I thought that the doppelFA would be the perfect solution for me, but it doesn't seem very häufig.

[davo]

I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not familiar enough with the scope of practice across different types of psychiatry departments. Sounds more like something that psychologists might do, though.

You may want to take a look at physician job postings for more detailed job descriptions: https://www.aerzteblatt.de/aerztestellen/angebote

Out of curiosity: where exactly are you a medical student?

[AlexLeo]

In Tuscany, Italy. Danke for the link

[tarumo]

You must not assume that German hospital CEOs and head of departments are men of honour. At "Universitätsklinik", you have the chance to do some research, but you may get a very poor salary even by german standards- and sometimes even a contract not compatible with law- check the "DERMA" thread. In each and every hospital, the head of department has the power to block or lengthen your resident training as he likes, because it´s all about cheap labour. The trick is to identify the rogue guys, and that´s what this forum is about. Apart from this, german healthcare system is at the point of detoriating very fast and things may change for the worse every year. Try to finish medical school, improve your langue skills and check again in a few years. Have you ever thought of Switzerland?

[AlexLeo]

Never been so much interest in Switzerland compared to Germany. I am sure that some difficulties are widespread in every EU Health system. On the other hand, many people who did or are doing the assistenzarztausbildung in Germany told me that there is an heavy shortage of physicians (psy) in particular and that the possibilities of forschung in uniklinik are bright and extremely encouraged. I don't know about salary, i though they were fixed by law about 3000 € and something, but please correct me if i'm wrong

[AlexLeo]

More than the salaries, my main motivation is about the superior research outlook (depicted from these people as bright and entusiasthic) and the joint neuro&psych route. Since I wanna strongly become a researcher-clinician, and love both neuro and psy, there you are the german choice. But before I commit myself totally to such a difficult language, I would be very grateful to gather from you as much information as possible, even if bitter. The bitter the more I can make a thoughtful choice.